» posted on 1:10am - September 20 2004 | posted by Hutch

DISCLAIMER: I have no concrete proof to back up (almost) anything written below. These are just some things I've been thinking about for the past week or so, and I thought I'd share. While I am relatively confident of the accuracy of some points, like I said, I have no proof - I haven't crunched any numbers or done any serious research...yet. There is one exception to this, and it is noted below. Finally, it is not my intention to imply that the conspiracy mentioned below is, in fact, a reality. It's merely something to think about.


Hypothesis 1 (based upon general observation): The majority of Americans living around or below the poverty line are ethnic minorities, primarily blacks and hispanics.

Hypothesis 2 (based upon a claim presented by my sociology professor): An increasing number, if not an outright majority, of new military recruits are blacks and hispanics.

Fact (not a hypothesis, based on the results of a study by The National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education): College is becoming less and less of an option for more and more people, as it is becoming less and less affordable.

Hypothesis 3 (based again on general observation): Most people who join the military are motivated to do so by the prospect of a free college education.

THE CONSPIRACY (please re-read the disclaimer before continuing):

In the late 1990s and into the 2000 presidential race, much fuss was raised by the hawks on the left and the right about the decreasing size, in terms of people, of the US military. The question was: how do you get people to join? They targeted blacks and hispanics, with some degree of success, out of the perception that these populations had fewer opportunities. But federal education funding, in the form of need-based grants and the like, still provided some low-income (predominantly black and hispanic) individuals with too much hope of a good life outside the military.

Along comes 9/11/01, which creates a patriotic fervor that causes a slight jump in military enrollment, but nothing highly significant or sustainable. However, it also creates a justification for increasing the military budget; and given the American public's appetite for tax cuts and Bush's willingness to please, increasing the budget in one area requires cutting the budget of another. So what does the government do? Funnel higher education funding into the military. Now, more and more people with a desire for a college degree have fewer and fewer options open to them; they're too poor to be able to afford it on their own and grant money is much harder to come by. The only options seem to be either taking out increasing amounts of federal loans (to keep pace with tuition increases) and drown in debt for the next 30 or so years, or join the military and hope death doesn't come before the educational benefits can be enjoyed. Thus more low-income kids head to the local military recruiter.

Thoughts?

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posted by: Hutch · date: 3:58am - May 03 2005

I forgot all about this.

Damn I miss Dark Poet. He was one fun sonofabitch to have around.

I need someone new to trade jabs with...anybody game?

newbie (1578 AP) » total items: 66 / total posts: 325 » 0.000 / 0.000

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posted by: Hutch · date: 8:24pm - September 22 2004

I suggest you dont ask for thoughts, if you dont really want them. I tire of your arrogance

Wait...because I don't wholly collapse in the face of your opposition and adamantly proclaim the defeat of my ideas in their entirety, you conclude that I must be arrogant and unwilling to accept dissent? Perhaps if you weren't so gung-ho about painting a negative portrait of me, you'd see the error in this characterization.


What you are basically saying is you can dispute whatever is put down here merely because you are stating a hypothesis?

That isn't what I'm saying at all, and I have no idea what it was I said which led you to such a belief. Rather, my contention is that, given my admission at the outset of my relative ignorance as to the facts of the matter, I can't fathom the point of your attempts to chastise me for being relatively uninformed. I never made claim that the largely unsupported nature of my thoughts gives me unquestionable license to dispute the input of others; however, it also doesn't mean I'm required to agree with whatever you say.

So by using this report as it was intended, it shows that progress is being made in all areas that this report is based on. Affordability is a big issue but the road to improvement is being paved.

The following are some of the conclusions of those who analyzed the raw data, and are excerpted from the press release for the study:

Although high school graduates are generally better prepared to succeed in college than they were a decade ago, most states, and the nation as a whole, have made little progress in translating these gains into improvements at the college level. These are among the major findings of 'Measuring Up 2004: The National Report Card on Higher Education'.

The achievement gains are not evenly spread through the population, the report also finds. Substantial racial, ethnic, income, and geographical disparities are hidden in the rising national averages in achievement.

"And for most Americans, college has become less affordable over the last decade," [chair of the Center's Board of Director's James] Hunt added. "At a time when we should be encouraging eligible students to attend college, we are making it more difficult for potential students and their families" to afford college. "This is a wake-up call for the nation, the states, and our colleges and universities."

"At a time of economic and demographic changes that point to a need for more educated Americans, the United States has stalled-and stalled at a level of mediocrity-in higher education opportunity and completion of degrees," said Patrick M. Callan, president of the National Center.

"We can no longer attribute all of our college access and quality problems to the failure of public schools. The fact is, high schools have improved over these last ten years and we haven't seen commensurate higher education gains. During this decade, while the United States, which once led the world in all aspects of higher education, has not made gains, other nations have moved ahead in key areas, such as higher education access and baccalaureate degree achievement."

For most Americans, college is less affordable than it was a decade ago. Tuition has increased faster than the incomes of most American families.

Generally, none of the increases in financial aid has kept pace with tuition increases.

Perhaps, instead of basing your conclusions upon your own analysis of the relatively scant information available on the website, you should rely upon the expertise of those with access to the raw data.

And the figures that claim an increase in enrollment may not be adjusted for population inflation but I would suspect that they are based solely on the previous years enrollment.

And that's precisely the issue I take with them.

it has become apparent that you dont want opposing thoughts, you merely want people to nod along with you.

Nothing could be further from the truth. My intention with this item is to encourage thought and spur discussion. I'm quite pleased that you're disagreeing with me; however, I can't shake the suspicion that your opposition is underwritten by some principled stance against me. It would be nice to believe that you were basing your dissent more upon what was being said than who was saying it. You seem to be more concerned with trying to prove me wrong than engaging in an enlightening debate. Instead of the platform for discussion I had intended here, you seem more interested in turning this into a forum for debunking me by any means possible. I fear that this is already beginning to degrade into nothing more than a quasi-intellectual pissing match. I fear that any point I raise, regardless of its strength or merit, will be disregarded; or, if particularly salient, that specific line of argument will be abandoned for a new avenue by which you can attempt to fault me.

newbie (1578 AP) » total items: 66 / total posts: 325 » 0.000 / 0.000

Patience and intelligence is lost on you

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posted by: The Dark Poet · date: 1:41pm - September 22 2004

I admitted in the very beginning that I've done no real research into this question and these were merely thoughts - I believe I used the term "hypotheses"; yet you're trying to lord over me for "not doing my homework". Also, your first post in this item, which dealt primarily with the issue of government funding for schools was wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand, and thus in this respect asinine. I wasn't questioning the merit of your input in and of itself, but in relation to the topic at hand.

Hutch, do you mind if I call you Hutch instead of some other name which may or may not be a fitting description of you and your lineage?

What you are basically saying is you can dispute whatever is put down here merely because you are stating a hypothesis? Irrelevant of factual information you can do as you please in a public forum and everything is ok because it isnt based on fact? You are not that stupid are you, or are you?

And as to what you claim as fact, you can recite something that you believe is relevant and factual but that doesn't always make it so? Dont believe me? Ask Dan Rather. And the figures that claim an increase in enrollment may not be adjusted for population inflation but I would suspect that they are based solely on the previous years enrollment. I read the study that your "facts" were based on, and based on that report in every area of "indicators" that they use for preparation of the report (i.e.Preparation, Participation, Affordability, Completion, Benefits and Learning) each show atleast 60% of the states have made improvements since the last report. Actual numbers break down this way...

Preparation 50 out of 50 states
Participation 31 out of 50 states
Affordability 33 out of 50 states
Completion 46 out of 50 states
Benefits 49 out of 50 states
Learning 45 out of 50 states received an incomplete because of the relatively new concept this entails. They explain it thusly

In the 2000 and 2002 editions of Measuring Up, all 50 states received an "Incomplete" in learning because there are no comparable data that would allow for meaningful state-by-state comparisons in this category. Measuring Up 2004, for the first time, gives a "Plus" in learning to five states-Illinois, Kentucky, Nevada, Oklahoma, and South Carolina. These states have developed comparable learning measures through their participation in a national demonstration project conducted by the National Forum on College-Level Learning and funded by The Pew Charitable Trusts.

So by using this report as it was intended, it shows that progress is being made in all areas that this report is based on. Affordability is a big issue but the road to improvement is being paved. Perhaps it is time to quit thinking so much in terms of socialized medicine and move on to a more practical theorum based on socialized education?

In case any of you want to read this report it can be found here, merely answer the two questions and go from there.

The Report

Now as to whether I can call you Hutch or not, doesnt really matter because it has become apparent that you dont want opposing thoughts, you merely want people to nod along with you. You will continue as you have before, proposing whatever you decide is urgently current in your little world and irregardless of the facts present it as an opinionated treatise on the current state of affairs, either fictional or real doesnt really make a damn, as long as it is a good read.

I suggest you dont ask for thoughts, if you dont really want them. I tire of your arrogance. Read the tag line at the bottom.

I no longer have the urge to push people's faces deep into their own stupidity poo and shout

newbie (2195 AP) » total items: 15 / total posts: 47 » 0.000 / 0.000

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posted by: Lolly_Pop · date: 12:18pm - September 22 2004

i cant even get involved in this really because im from england we dont pay to go to college, we GET paid £40 a week *aprox 71 american*

There Are alot less people going to uni though because student loans putting them off ... i havent been paying all that much attention to the protests and that though because if its a few years before i can even think of going to uni*

newbie (2877 AP) » total items: 120 / total posts: 751 » 0.000 / 0.000

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posted by: Hutch · date: 4:13am - September 22 2004

You know, being told that I make myself look like an ass by you, makes me wonder where your points lack support. Seriously, you may not like the "fact" that I disagree with your conspiracy theory, but you didn't ask me to like it, you asked for thoughts, did you not?

It's points like that make you look like an ass. Why? Because you're trying to chastise me for enumerating faulty facts when I've made quite clear that (with one exception) the presentation of fact was not my main concern here. I admitted in the very beginning that I've done no real research into this question and these were merely thoughts - I believe I used the term "hypotheses"; yet you're trying to lord over me for "not doing my homework". Also, your first post in this item, which dealt primarily with the issue of government funding for schools was wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand, and thus in this respect asinine. I wasn't questioning the merit of your input in and of itself, but in relation to the topic at hand.

As far as my one fact is concerned, I stand by it. The claim I made that higher education is becoming less affordable was based upon figures from the study "Measuring Up 2004", a national survey conducted biannually by the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education. The study grades American colleges and universities in a variety of subjects, one being affordability. In the 2004 report card, American schools averaged a failing grade in affordability, down from the 'D' they received in 2002.

The fact that more people are going to college says nothing on the question of affordability; rather, if anything, it would signify an increase in the percieved necessity of a college degree. Because people are going to school does not necessarily mean they can afford it; if they're like me, they're endebting themselves in order to attend. And as the perception that one needs a college degree in order to advance in society grows, more people - it would seem to me - would be willing to take on increasing amounts of debt in order to achieve this "necessity".

The numbers you provided do show a nominal increase in enrollment; but what about real figures adjusted for population growth? Has their been a real jump in college enrollment; that is, is a higher percentage of the relevant population attending college now compared with years past? And what about the demography of these new students? Does the enrollment increase encompass the entirety of the social spectrum, or is it largely confined to the comparatively privileged?

As for the information you provided on the Pell Grant, I thank you for it.

Again, as I said, my point with the "conspiracy theory" notion wasn't to argue for its existence. It was merely a device I chose to employ in order to stimulate some thought on the relevant budgetary issues.

newbie (1578 AP) » total items: 66 / total posts: 325 » 0.000 / 0.000

*shakes head*

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posted by: The Dark Poet · date: 11:15pm - September 21 2004

You know, being told that I make myself look like an ass by you, makes me wonder where your points lack support. Seriously, you may not like the "fact" that I disagree with your conspiracy theory, but you didn't ask me to like it, you asked for thoughts, did you not?

I gave you my thoughts on funding and then I stated that your "facts" are skewed, which meant the one thing you called a "fact" wasnt quite factual.

If more and more people are living under the median line for paying for college, then granted your numbers add up, but the numbers for people who can afford it is still on the increase.

taken from:
Getting There: A Report for National College Week, November 1999

" For the second year in a row, this nation is setting a national enrollment record, with 14.9 million Americans in college. Enrollment is expected to increase by 1.5 million between 1999 and 2009, with full-time enrollment projected to increase by close to 14 percent."

College isn't becoming less affordable overall, but people are becoming less willing to pay for its upkeep. In the last decade State run universities and colleges have increased tutions at a far greater pace than Private universities, which simply means that the burden for education isnt paramount on the State's mind. They will spend more time and money shoveling kids out of primary and secondary schools and worry less about Higher education.

With the increase in Pay For Knowledge Colleges such as ECPI or Devry etc. It is much easier for a person to pay for education in a specialized field without having to pay for the "experience" and "atmosphere."

I dont lack sympathy for those who want to and cant afford to go to college, and I wish that the federal government would offer more scholarships and not cut funding from ones already in place, but when you are in the position of having to decide how you are going to fulfill your dream of a higher education, there are always options. From entering the military and using the G I BILL (which is nothing new) or applying for any number of scholarships provided by the private sector. My own company sponsors two types of Scholarships, one for employee's children and one for Florida State Colleges where the home office is based.

The very idea that you have to risk life and limb to get an education is ridiculous, unfortunately I would offer that most people who join the military do it as an option to life where they come from or a stilted sense of patriotism they have received from whereever. Do some join just to get to college? Hell yes, why shouldn't they? It looks good on an erollment form and an application for employment.

The federal funding hasn;t gone anywhere, you make up things so that your paragraphs read better without actually doing your homework to learn the truth. Like CBS news you think it is easier to go with what you have instead of checking the accuracy of what you are saying. As I said before there are options, and if you wish a list of Federal Options for your own benefit go here...

Federal Aid

As to the cuts to Grants such as the Pell and others, you might find this interesting.

What actually happened to the Pell grants and others

So please before you think I am making myself look like an ass, be very fucking sure you aren't looking in a mirror.

I no longer have the urge to push people's faces deep into their own stupidity poo and shout

newbie (2195 AP) » total items: 15 / total posts: 47 » 0.000 / 0.000

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posted by: Hutch · date: 11:00am - September 21 2004

DP,

As I said more than once in this item, please read the disclaimer. In no way is any of this (except for the issue of affordability of higher education) intended to be taken as "fact".

But while we're on the subject, federal grants and scholarships are exactly the sort of funding I'm talking about . There is, or at least there was at one time, a considerable amount of federal funding dedicated to the sole purpose of easing the financial burden of a college education for Americans (ref: Pell Grant). Where have these funds gone?

To provide a personal example:

Up until the current semester, I was, due to both my educational merit and financial need, a recipient of the federal Pell Grant, which covered a substantial amount of the cost of my education. However, despite the fact that both my educational merit (via my presence on the Dean's List) and my financial need (via the figures of both personal and parental income) increased with the start of this academic year, I am no longer eligible for the Pell Grant. Why? Because funding for the Pell Grant (and similar programs) has been cut (this, like the issue of affordability, is, as far as I know, a solid fact. If you have evidence to prove otherwise, please share).

You're right; many state schools do generate a large portion of their budget from atheletic programs and the like. Maybe Duke and Notre Dame, as private institutions, don't receive federal or state funding, but students at these universities can and do receive federal and state assistance. You seem to be overlooking the fact that the issue of operational budgets of schools is completely irrelevent to any point I was attempting to make. I'm not talking about where schools get the money to function, and I have absolutely no idea where you got the impression that I was. Rather, the issue at question is where prospective students get the money to pay for school. Even so, you're forgetting the fact that many schools, like the one I attend (IUPUI, look it up), generate only a very small portion of their income from sources of atheletics, etc.. The vast majority of their revenues are generated directly from the student body in the form of tuition and fees. And tuition/fees are increasing by the semester at almost every institution of higher learning. As federal funds to cover the accessability gap are diminishing, as are state funds (thanks to the budget crisis nearly every, if not every single, state in the union is facing), what options are open to low-income individuals (like myself) who wish to pursue higher education? That is the point I was attempting to raise.

While I'm certaintly appreciative of your concerted effort to discredit me, I really do wish you'd attempt to do so by addressing relevent points. This would also help diminish the possibility of making yourself look like an ass.

newbie (1578 AP) » total items: 66 / total posts: 325 » 0.000 / 0.000

Once again

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posted by: The Dark Poet · date: 3:45am - September 21 2004

The federal governments does not subsidize the budget of State colleges, States do that. Neither of them provide funding for Private Colleges, such as Duke University or Notre Dame. A lot of those schools operating budgets come from sports and conference participation.

While the federal government does provide grants and scholarships to students and programs of research they in no way lead the way for this type of funding.

Your facts are skewed.

I no longer have the urge to push people's faces deep into their own stupidity poo and shout

newbie (2195 AP) » total items: 15 / total posts: 47 » 0.000 / 0.000

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