Well from the looks of things Milenko you seem to have pissed a few people off so hopefully I can translate your words into something a little bit more people friendly. Ok guys, Lev, Milenko, settle down. The real problem we're having here in this country isn't whether or not we like the people coming into this country or whether or not they deserve, as humans, to be here, it's space. We very simply do not have the required space or resources to support more people. Our population grows exponentially each year and with our archaic monetary system, we can't handle it. We're arguing a moot point, because regardless of what is said, nothing could possibly change, moreover I haven't really heard either of you do anything but attack eachother's words. Never really a discussion of the topic you simply both want each other to feel stupid. Lev, I know you'll object to that point but I can see it, while a minor point perhaps, you really don't like the way Milenko approached the topic and you want to make him change it. To be perfectly honest, you're right though when you said "We're never going to live in peace as long as we divide our world up, label each other and treat each other different based on what side of the stream your brother is born on. We're all the same. We're all human beings." and I agree. We really won't. However we don't have much choice, unless someone can think of a way to get us economically to another planet and colonize and expand our horizons we will eventually stomp ourselves into oblivion until our population works it's way down to a handleable level, at which point we'll start over again. We cannot survive as a whole if we continue to multiply, SO LONG AS WE ARE ON THIS PLANET. That's really the source of our problem I think. Once we solve our need to keep people out, I'm sure the philosopher in us all will be able to argue more distinctly that borders and ownerships are not neccesary. As soon as we can stop taking from our fellow man to make ourselves comfortalbe with our existance, then charity won't be such a rare thing.

You know, it is nice to think about a world where anyone can move anywhere their little heart desires with no hassles. But that just can't happen with the world as we have it. I would like to have a one world government, no, I would like to have a one world system where everyone was equal and there was no corruption or greed, but it ain't happening. I think that the system is in place for specific reasons that I dont completely understand, so to say that it is unfair is beyond me. I would like everyone to be equal and have the same access to resources, but I dont think it is reasonable. So, as a philosophy, I am for open borders, but as a realist, we cant simply let every body move here because they were born without and I was born with, those few who actually have liberty would lose control and grip over the populos, and is therefore unreasonable.

(I'm calling you out on argumentum ad hominem, Milenko. It's okay to debate a subject with somebody or several somebodies, but calling people idiots and using harsh sarcasm is rather uncalled for. After all, this is just a debate. No offense meant, of course.)

Uhhhmmmm, who's taking things out of context here?

quoting milenko:

Lev: "because" what does that even mean. who uses "because" honestly now. and then blah blah blah

You are quoting *one* word I said and cutting off the sentence there assuming as if it didn't even have other words after it, not to mention a colon indicating the reason behind the "because"...

quoting milenko:

"I want the American government (or any other government) to flourish?" Me too, I'm glad we can come to the same agreement.

Again, I will just hope this was a joke in cutting my sentences off with your statement of taking things out of context. What I actually said was:

quoting Me:

and did I somehow give off the impression that I want the American government

quoting milenko:

"welcome you with open arms". thanks lev, I like you too.

Uhm, yeah... Again, who said anything about context..?

quoting milenko:

I could go on, but I think you see the point.

No, actually I think I may have missed whatever point there was there, so yeah you might want to go on if you had more to follow up on any of the previously stated arguements.

quoting milenko:

It's really annoying when some one spends hours pulling stuff out of context and responding to it.

Like what? So far, all I've seen is your 3 references to sentences by myself which you truncated to interpret in a different way. If you felt I have done so, then by all means post some of them and show how I have taken something out of context. I will willing to be open-minded and accept if I have, but I need to hear more than the statement to believe so; I need to see how or where I did and in which manner it was taken out of context before I can accept it.

quoting milenko:

It takes way too long to respond to and decreases the chance that we will get open argument. which if I'm not mistaken is one of the purposes of this site.

What do you consider an open arguement? Shortening some of my sentences to mean something else (while all along saying I am taking things out of context), ignoring all of the other statements made who attempted to make points, or simply using the ol' "I don't need to defend anything I've said... My stating that I don't need to defend it is enough defense.." ? I'm really curious.

As for the intention of the site, it is known for having different purposes from person to person, and as many people have kindly point out it doesn't matter what I intend it for, it will be interpretted in it's own way by every different visitor. But yes, I intend it for discussing, debating and expanding our capabilities to think in different ways we never did before. Though everyone seems to have a completely different definition of what that means than how I mean it.

As for your other comments in the paragraph after those to TLMart, basically everything you said there could be applied to anyone of any color of any ethnic background, but you for some reason stereotypes to assume that those properties can only be true of someone who immigrates to another country. I'm an immigrant to Sweden from America and I'm nothing like that you have explained yet if I look around myself I see quite a few nationals of Sweden, born, bred and raised who do fit into those categories. And the same thing is true of any country; there are always good immigrants, bad immigrants, good nationals and bad nationals. Why isolate them into groups, and classes when everyone is still a part of the same picture?

quoting milenko:

Of course those two scenerios aren't exactly alike, but most of y'all are poets and should be able to get the main point.

I don't want to come off as a smart ass here or anything (but it's all I know how to do), but for someone who self-admititly claims to be so intelligent and love discussions so much you sure to seem to leave the reader up to just knowing your point instead of you yourself trying to explain the point. It doesn't quite work that way where you can just say "everyone knows what I mean". In the end, some might buy this and others will just see through it for what it is; an excuse for having nothing better to say.

PS, notice I didn't take hours to disect the post and know what to say...

oh yeah that's right, I remember why I didn't respond to this post now. because it would have taken me an hour. ok lets start

Lev: "because" what does that even mean. who uses "because" honestly now. and then blah blah blah
"I want the American government (or any other government) to flourish?" Me too, I'm glad we can come to the same agreement.
"welcome you with open arms". thanks lev, I like you too.
I could go on, but I think you see the point. It's really annoying when some one spends hours pulling stuff out of context and responding to it. It takes way too long to respond to and decreases the chance that we will get open argument. which if I'm not mistaken is one of the purposes of this site.

mart: thanks genius but I'm already an american. and if being an asshole is the only way to get some of you people to open your eyes I will gladly accept that title. I see your point on laws. Looks like we don't have laws to protect us from invaders. and we don't have laws to protect us from eachother. Looks like murder is not against the law. Way to think things through idiot.
3ntropy: I will be a little nicer to you, because I kinda like ya. The only response that I have for you are twofold. First, probably the only reason that that student is an american is because his mother snuck across the border when she was pregnant and delivered the child in the US. Secondly his mother does not obey all the laws, she did not become a legal citizen, and she doesn't pay taxes on any income that she makes. if she becomes a legal alien or a citizen and pays taxes then she would be able to stay.

I think this might help. Think of illegal aliens as a friend who leaves their parents house, or gets kicked out or whatever. You like them so you let them stay on your couch. Things are good for the first couple of weeks, untill you realize they are not doing anything to try to better themselves. They are perfectly content sleeping on your couch, eating your food, drinking you beer, and smoking all your weed while you are at work. they never try to get a job or become self supporting. I don't know about the rest of y'all but I'm not independently wealthy and I would have to kick them out soon. If I didn't I would not be able to survive.
Of course those two scenerios aren't exactly alike, but most of y'all are poets and should be able to get the main point.

SAN DIEGO - Thousands of students protesting tough immigration reform proposals marched in several California cities Friday but authorities said the demonstrations were peaceful.

There were no reports of walkouts in the giant Los Angeles Unified School District, where a week of youthful outcry began with tens of thousands of students leaving classes, triggering a police crackdown on truancy.

Big marches in San Diego and Bakersfield and smaller protests elsewhere coincided with the 79th anniversary of the birth of the late Cesar Chavez, the co-founder of the United Farm Workers union who became a champion of poor, Hispanic agricultural workers in the 1960s and '70s.

Students waved Mexican flags and signs saying "We are not criminals" as they demonstrated in San Diego's Chicano Park. Police estimates of the crowd size initially ranged up to 4,000, but spokesman Sgt. Jim Schorr later fixed the number at about 1,500. A school district spokeswoman put it near 2,000.

California Highway Patrol officers closed one nearby entrance to the Coronado Bridge to prevent students from blocking traffic, which continued to move unimpeded on the span over San Diego Bay.

Students distributed leaflets explaining a provision of a bill approved in the House of Representatives that calls for a sweeping crackdown on illegal immigration. Its prospects for becoming law are uncertain.

"This law if it passes will affect pretty much everyone I know - aunts, uncles, friends," said protester Jessica Hurtado, a U.S.-born senior at La Jolla High School whose parents came from Mexico and are now legal residents.

Hurtado, who painted the words "No violencia" on her cheeks, said relatives and friends would be scared to even go to a hospital out of fear of deportation if the House bill becomes law.

Ulises Lopez, a sophomore at Hoover High School in central San Diego County, walked 90 minutes to get to Chicano Park. He said he was marching to defend cousins who are in the United States illegally.

"I'm scared for them," he said. "They work hard and they want to send them back."

Maria Castellanos, 24, who came to the rally with her brother Henry, a high school freshman, stood on the outskirts of the demonstration and voiced disapproval of the many students waving Mexican flags.

"We're Americans first and Mexicans second," she said in Spanish.

Sheriff's deputies monitored at least 200 students from north San Diego County high schools who walked to California State University, San Marcos.

"To their credit, the students have been very peaceful, which corresponds to Cesar Chavez's legacy," said sheriff's Lt. Jim Bolwerk.

In the Central Valley, about 1,000 students marched in Bakersfield. Six were suspended for arguing with police and security guards, said John Teves, spokesman for the Kern High School District.

In Fresno, about 50 middle school students walked out but were rounded up and taken to a truancy center, said police spokesman Jeff Cardinale.

"We've tried to offer the students other avenues to express themselves like a free-speech space and different forums," said Susan Bedi, a spokeswoman for Fresno Unified School District.

About 100 demonstrators gathered briefly in a light rain outside City Hall in Los Angeles, where protests had been promoted for various locations in postings on a popular Internet site, but police and school authorities had taken a tough stand against walkouts after tens of thousands of students roamed streets on Monday.

"There are not the numbers of young people that we thought," Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa said during an appearance with U.S. Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales at a downtown hotel.

"This is a free country and people have, of course, the right to express their views," Gonzales said, adding that the parents of many students came to the U.S. to ensure they had "the best education in the world."

"Kids need to be in school. No question about that," Gonzales said.

Cardinal Roger Mahony, head of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles, an immigrant rights activist, on Thursday urged students to honor Chavez's legacy by staying in school.

"In my opinion, student boycotts of school and other activities on our streets do not produce meaningful immigration reform," said Mahony.

In Washington, D.C., the House has passed legislation limited to tightening borders and making it a crime to be in the United States illegally or to offer aid to illegal immigrants. The Senate, meanwhile, is debating proposals for a guest worker program that would offer possible citizenship opportunities.

Has anyone been listening to the news or anything. thousands of highschool students walked out of their classes to PROTEST. It's been on the news here, I'm not sure about anywhere else.

I even heard the story of a highschool senior who walked FOUR HOURS to get to this rally and protest, because his mother was an illegal alien, he was not, his mother works extremely hard, followed all the laws, and so forth, but if the bill passes, she can be deported.

"I am living on your property (which I did nothing to earn) I am using your resources. and now you don't have a job, because I took it. that sounds like a great life for me."

You sound like you'd fit in here in America quite well. You're very posessive, and from the sounds of it a vindictive shit. I agree with Lev. If you want to come here (or to any country) and want to set up on the land near me (for I too, do not believe in being able to own land), and you want to be a positive part of this place, and part of my life, then by all means you're more than welcome to stay.

I think the only reason we have laws in the first place, is because 1) people are greedy and want more power than others, and 2) there are so many people out there like you.

"I disagree, I have tried to become a citizen of another country."

key word: tried

"My mother is trying to become an american citizen as we speak"

again: trying

"If I want it bad enough I will jump through the hoops and pay the fees and all that other crap. If I have to do it, why don't they."

Because as I stated numerous times (which you seemed to ignore): many of them come from less fortunate places. The concept of really knowing hunger and really knowing poverty probably isn't even in your understanding, so don't pretend to try if you can't empathize what that must be like.

"but we did so legally, with order. We did not just want something and take it. That's called stealing."

If by that you mean flushing out an indigenous people, stealing the land from them, ridding them of their culture, ways of life and religion, then no... of course not... that never happened. America is founded upon robbery; the land itself was "taken". Did you forget that? lol, I mean come on, I don't really have to argue much there with such a flawed defense...

"Everyone has the right to want a better life, everyone knows how to become an american citizen, or they can easily find out how."

Once again, completely ignoring what I stated about "who says the way to become a citizen is fair or just?" If the law said "negroes are not permitted to apply for asylum" then that justifies it because it's all part of the legal protocol? Hmm... As Martin Luther king once said "don't forget, everything Hitler did was legal". Why don't you question the authenticity of that legal system instead of just accepting it because it is that way and thinking it must be fair and just?

"Our government will crumble"

Ohhhh... and did I somehow give off the impression that I want the American government (or any other government) to flourish? I'm not talking about creating a totalitarian system of laws, order or fascism; I'm talking about creating a world where peoples rights come before governments.

"they simply can not support all those lazy basterds coming in here and living on welfare"

That sure is a bold and stereotypical view to simply assume all immigrants must be that way. The fact of the matter remains, America is as strong of a nation as it is today because of the immigrant labor force that comes for opportunity and works at below minimum wage simply to put a few loafs of fucken bread on the table for their family, while the rich and priveleged don't even know the meaning of the word "hunger". The fact also remains that the US has one of the absolute worst welfare systems in all of the developed nations, so I wouldn't even bother getting started on that. The welfare in Sweden and all of scandinavia is eons above the USA and you don't see me using it as a tool for hatred or intolerance even though I don't completely agree with it being as it is.

"They want something for nothing."

What makes you any different? You want to be part of a priveleged elite simply because of where you were born. Did you get to ask "god" where you wanted to be born? So as I see it, being born in the priveleged world is the same thing as getting "something for nothing".

"I can come to your house and just set up a tent and live there."

Ohh geez, not this same lame old arguement again... I get this all the time by people who can't seem to think outside of the box, so they quickly jump at immature and childish notions. I would start by saying "why would you do that?" If you mean no harm and wanted to be a part of my life or society, then I'd welcome you with open arms. However, if you would do it for the sole purpose of trying to infringe upon my happiness and livelihood, then you would prove my very point that there is a clear and distinct line between those who need rules to live (you) and those who don't (me). You need a law to tell you how to treat your fellow man? You need rules to tell you how to act in a respective manner? Shit, no wonder society is the way it is...

"If my county doesn't have a border than neither does your property"

I hate to burst your bubble, but as I've stated several times before on this site I agree with the statement "property is theft"; therefor in all technicality I do not believe in property. (again, try outside the box)

"I'll just come, maybe I'll build a house on property your worked for, and your ancestors died to protect."

once again, the same could be said about the land in general which was plundered from the natives...

"just because I want to, just because I feel like it."

again, back to what I said about proving there are two totally different types of people in the world; those who need rules and those who don't. It's all a matter of intelligence and respect. Sadly enough, many think they have it when they simply don't.

"I am living on your property (which I did nothing to earn) I am using your resources. and now you don't have a job, because I took it. that sounds like a great life for me."

This all goes back to Tlmart's response which was proven by the attitude you have taken on: you keep referring to it as "mine" (or "your"). This isn't MY utopia and this isn't YOUR utopia. It's one big blue fucken planet. Get over it.

I disagree, I have tried to become a citizen of another country. My mother is trying to become an american citizen as we speak, and I want dual citizenship with Canada. Trust me it is a pain in the ass. but tough shit. If I want it bad enough I will jump through the hoops and pay the fees and all that other crap. If I have to do it, why don't they.
granted most of us came from another country, but we did so legally, with order. We did not just want something and take it. That's called stealing. Everyone has the right to want a better life, everyone knows how to become an american citizen, or they can easily find out how.
If what you want becomes true and we break down the borders then what. Our government will crumble, they simply can not support all those lazy basterds coming in here and living on welfare. That's a great life right there. They want something for nothing.
Using your logic, because everyone owns everything else, I can come to your house and just set up a tent and live there. no borders means no borders. If my county doesn't have a border than neither does your property. I'll just come, maybe I'll build a house on property your worked for, and your ancestors died to protect. just because I want to, just because I feel like it. just because I want what you have. and then maybe I'll go to your work and tell them that I want your job, sure I don't speak the native language but I'll work for half price to compensate for it. Now your fucked. I am living on your property (which I did nothing to earn) I am using your resources. and now you don't have a job, because I took it. that sounds like a great life for me.

Yeah, I agree with the utopia statement Hammard said. It's like and individual from the general population (at least here in America) think that they themselves OWN America and it's borders, and become very posessive and greedy. It is rather concieted to think that you alone own a place.

Yeah I totally agree. People seem to somehow get this idea in to their head they live in a utopia and people are trying to come into their country and steal it from them.

I think its been around for centuries but is becoming more and more used as a political tool. That there is this unseen army that are trying to steal all your welfare. Keeps people afraid and distracts them from other problems.