i'm going to try to be coherent here as i am sorta drunk.

 

you cannot tell me that saying something to someone has a diff effect them in  the forums.

many kids looked up to you lev, and i honestly believe some may have tried things they  normally wouldn't have cause you said it was cool.

it  really is no different. i say something that hurts someones feelings,  you say something that makes people want to experiment to be cool.  talk, whatever kind, affects people differently, good or bad.

 

yes, you and i will have to agree to disagree.

mostly we've disagreed.

i'm married with kids and been through shit.

you are not married with no kids and have been through shit.

 

we see things differently, that's life.

i guess i'm just dissapointed that the one place that i thought was always tolerant, suddenly seems like all the rest.

i always thought of this place as my first internet home. my first "sign up".

this place is almost as old to me as my oldest son.

 

i've been through hells and back, and it was always here, constant. but i suppose things inevidably change.

i will, if necessary, bite my tongue here. but i never thought i'd have to.

I'm not going to do a (really) long post this time - I'll just say a few brief things and give this a rest:

- Just because no one has ever told you that you act a certain way doesn't mean they don't think it or say it behind closed doors. I *know* that with 100% certainty. Whatever we happen to hear in "public" on here a forum here, facebook or wherever else isn't all that is being talked about or floating around. I don't have to take a leap of faith to imagine there is a lot of talk about how full of shit I am by numbers of other people. People don't always voice their thoughts about others as openly as some people do.

- I agree with you that on the old forums people did speak to each other much more harshly, and I also agree that nothing much was ever said. But just like you said, many people were run off. That makes me feel remorseful - not because there were times in which I could have been friendly and wasn't, but because I think of the impact shunning the wrong person at the wrong point in their life might have had on them. I think a huge part of the reason why I express my opinion so vigorously on subjects such as these today is that because a part of me feels ashamed that I allowed so many people to bullied right in front of my face while I either did nothing or joined in. I'm sure I've treated a countless number of people like shit on and off line, and I've grown to feel really bad about it by seeing things from different eyes.

- I think the example you gave about sexual deviancy & drug addiction was quite a bit shortsighted and lacked proper context; I've never heard of someone becoming a complete whore or stinking addict because they are given information (or even praise) about the matters. I won't deny that such information or discussions may contribute to curiousity and expiramentation, but it alone is not going to turn someone into a junkie or a hooker or what-have-you. In fact, I would go so far as to say you are comparing causes with effects; drug addiction and sexual deviancy definitely must have more of a correlation to mental and physical abuse that individuals were exposed to than mere information. A rapper singing about the thrill of smoking a fatty might entice someone to trying Cannabis, as could a discussion on the subject, but if you want to talk addiction and sexual deviancy, lets get real about whether some glorification about a substance or act contributed more to such behaior, or whether the lack of compassion, or mental/physical abuse plays the bigger role. Information will always lead to curiousity, but no mentally healthy person wakes up one day with what it takes to be a junkie or transient - that comes from social maladjustment.

 

- You can say that I am being hypocritcal about things now if I've "changed my ways", or you can say that I am overreacting - I won't argue with that either. I can live with both assertions, but I couldn't live with underreacting anymore.

I was never asking or hoping you to agree with what I have been saying here, only that you could at the very least understand the point of view and simply disagree with it. But by now I have felt that it is evidently clear that I'm not going to get anywhere, so I'm happy to agree to disagree if you refuse to accept that how we treat our peers isn't a vital part of a healthy society.

so, you were not offended but you felt the need to go into lecture mode about the way i talk to people here, even though i rarely post.

 

you admitted that you yourself will crack offensive jokes but know when to keep the jokes at bay.

yet, i assume you can take a little joke and crack one, but it's not ok?

 

so can you take it or not?

if not, i will keep my jokes at bay.

 

and usually, if i infact do sound "demeaning" towards people here it's because i think they know i'm joking.

maybe i'm wrong, but no one's told me what a bitch i am.

 

it really is funny, i remember the old forums when people were rude and crude to one another but nothing was ever said.

i remember certain people who were outright nasty, and nothing was ever said.

i know many people were run off, and yet it was tolerated.

 

as far as speaking to children in such a manner,  i don't.

that's not what we are talking about here.  most people here are adults. 

i know you are an adult. i spoke in a joking manner to an adult.

 

and for the teenagers that are here, if you are concerned that they are not fully mature to take a joke, perhaps you should take down the sex and drug forums.

 

i mean if we are going to get moral, let's go all the way,

i'm more worried about what underage kids will read then them taking offense to a joke.

 

you are afraid people will become cutters if they get their feelings hurt, but you're not worried about them becoming addicts, or sexual deviants because of something they read or saw here?

If you read what I had said (and you judging from the fact that you said this *again*, you probably haven't); I said very clearly that by having a social concious you shouldn't even need to think about what you are saying as it should be second nature. You've said a couple times now that what you said was meant merely as way of saying "I could see your reflection", yet I can't help but wondering if that was the most civil way to say that. There are many ways to say the same thing, and you seem to have a nact for choosing a less friendly approach.



I can agree with you thinking that I might be making more of this than it was meant to be, but I can't help but feel that it is my duty to step in when I think that someone's chosen form of articulating what they meant wasn't how I would envision proper social context.



Again, I know I've said this several times now, but you either seem to skip over that part or simply disagree with me: I *wasn't* offended by your words. I was upset by your way of expressing them. This isn't about a solitary incident where you said something some way one time - I stepped in because I see a recurring (demeaning) theme of how you choose to say things to people.



Well, yes and no - yes, *I* may have turned this into a "this is what's wrong with society" rant (which I do in fact believe), but no, I don't think it's fair to say "all of [us] people", since I happen to know quite well that most people on here couldn't give two shits either, and would happily either take your position, or stand on the side-lines saying nothing.
 


You can call it PC if you like - I don't care what you call it as I won't get bogged down in the semantics or definition of what it is or isn't. Though I still insist, it is more than about being "PC" - it's about ackowledging the fact that not everyone has the same sensitivities as you or I. For example, I love to crack Jew-jokes as much as the next guy and I do them quite liberally, but if I know I am talking with someone who is Jewish I automatically know to word things in a more respectful manner, until I sense what is okay and what isn't. Or maybe that is what this all was for you - you sensed it was alright to say something from me, and were surprised from my reaction..?
 


I agree and disagree here again. I don't think it's necessary (or even desirable) to treat the world with candy-coating, but I do see it as a moral obligation (at least for me) to be aware that what I say to my fellow man will shape that man, and if that man becomes something the rest of society despises, we all have ourselves to blaim. I agree that the quicker one accepts humanity for what they are, the better off they will be, but surely you don't also follow that logic to a T and mean to imply that you would go up to a fat 4 year old and say "lay off the sweets, tubbie". Now maybe you would and maybe you wouldn't, but if you wouldn't at some part that logic of letting your peers know the world is cruel falls apart. That's what my gripe is about. This site has a history of being home to many of the deviants and social misfits in society, so for that very reason I think it's callous to communicate in such a manner where many of those around us are the equivalent of the 4-year old child who hasn't yet learned the reality of the world.

Look, at the same time - I don't care one way or another - it's not *me* who gets upset when someone goes on a rampage and mows down a bunch of pricks. That never makes me feel sad for the supposed victims - it makes me feel sad for the purpetrator because I think "maybe if they were treated better they would have taken a different path". In other words, when such tradgedies occur, you have no one to blaim but every single one of us who acted in a manner which may have contributed to their acting out. Again, I know you're first thought will be something along the lines of finding some rational way to justify how you had no part in it, but the grim reality is YOU DO. Whether or not you choose to realize (or accept) it, the fact of the matter is everything we do to everyone else has an impact on them, and when you choose to communicate in such a manner - you are a part of the problem (as I see it).



If you really can't grasp what I mean with all of this (or at the very least understand my point but simply disagree with it), then I think I have been giving human intelligence far too much credit. I hate to break it to you, but you don't have to look very far today with the state of the world to realize we haven't exactly been making very many good decisions. We don't trust our neighbors, we bail out our stupidity, we lock up those we marginalize, we hate anything we don't understand, we justify our selfish deeds - well, with all that taken into consideration it's a bit hard to give human intelligence much credit.
 


You haven't offended or hurt my feelings - for that to be true; first you must have made a statement which was in actuality true, and second it must have been something I am sensitive about (there are a few things that probably would do that, but hair-line, weight, teeth or anything else visual wouldn't do it).

I do see a reason for turning it into a debate about human behavior, because I am human. I am not happy with the state of the world, and if I see behavior that I believe is contributing to that decay I find it important to say what I think about it. I regret if I come off preachy or blaimful, but I have yet to find a way to challenge people to look at their faults to learn from them. I think the whole "global warming" issue is a perfect example of what I mean by this - telling people they are contributing to a worsened worldly state will do two things: it will make those open to personal improvement take those lessons to heart and learn from them, and those who refuse to acknowledge they ever have any part in any problem angry and call the whole thing fantasy because they want nothing to do with it. After all, most people don't seem to keen on accepting responsibility if it means they may have to do something to change that state. If that doesn't show a lack of human intelligence, I sure as hell don't know what does.

think about what i am saying? it was a whim. it was meant more to comment on the fact that i  could see your reflection.

 

i think you are making way more out of this then it ever should have been. it was not done with malicious intent, and although, obviously, you were offeneded, i really didn't think that you of all people would turn this into a "this is what's wrong with society" issue.

 

perhaps there are underlying issues i am unaware of.  and yes it is a pc thing.

it's not pc to call it a receding hairline. no different then calling someone fat or retarded, even though they are both, by definition, legitimate terms.

 

i honestly don't believe that it's my moral obligation to treat the world with kid gloves.  life is not fair and you will not be babied by the world.

it is a harsh place, will always be, and as soon as you accept it and learn that people are imperfect, the quicker you will be able to function as a productive adult.

 

if i have to take everything so serious then i might as well not make any comments at all.

i really think you are underestimating human intelligence.

 

if i pissed you off or hurt your feelings then just say as much. there really is no reason to turn it into a debate/lecture about human behaviour and morals.

That's not what I am saying; I am saying you should at the very least *think* about what you are saying - that's all.
 


I'm so tired of this assanine and technologically-dehumanized mentality - it's such a cop-out; a mechanism of displacing any personal guilt.

Who do you think is putting the input into the computer on the other side of the screen? Do you really believe the interactions you have online are with programmed robots that don't think and don't have brains with human emotions? The internet is just a communication medium; like a letter, like a telephone call, like a human voice used in person-to-person speech. The medium is different; the human interaction is constant.



cop-out, cop-out... This is what my gripe with you is all about; I'm simply asking that you step outside of the self-built shell you seem to have placed yourself in to realize that while *you* might be capable of this or that, not everyone else is, and you're not talking with yourself online, and you're not talking to programmed robots; you are talking to everyone else.



Again, as I originally said in my second response in this thread; this isn't about what anyone thinks or says about *me*; it's about what is said to my peers - my fellow man. As much as you may not believe it, I am not some self-obsorbed cretin that only cares about myself and those I know. I have a social-conscious - now maybe you do or maybe you do not - but I sure as hell do, so it should be completely understandable for me to get upset that you can talk to your fellow man the way you do without any consideration as to the ramifications of what your words may have on others.



This has absolutely nothing to do with "political correctness". Political correctness rarely gives two shits about civil conduct. Thinking about the power of your words on your peers has nothing to do with politics - it's simple courtesy. This really is lost on you, isn't it? I'm sorry if that is what you are talking about when you are saying I am acting "high on a horse", but I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't seem to understand what I am talking about here. I'm not saying "do this" or "do that" or be politically correct - I'm simply asking for you to see that while our primary medium of communication has changed today - the interactions - and effects of said interactions - have not. And no, you should never have to stop and rethink whether or not what you're about to say is "okay" or not ; by having a well developed social-conscious it should become second nature - a matter of instinct.
 


Whether I know you or whether I don't is irrelevant to what I am saying here. What I am saying is that what may be a joke to you may not be a joke to someone else. What may be innocent and games to someone may be completely different to someone else. You may very well be harmless and you could be a thoughtful person for that matter, but we aren't even the least bit concerned with the power of our words on your fellow man - then I don't feel there is much hope for humanity. We can use whatever justifications might be the most convenient for us to displace any guilt we should feel, but the fact of the matter is what we do and say - regardless of the medium - effects everyone around us. That is what being a social species is all about.
 


That's one major area where we differ - for me, everyone's opinion matters to me, and not just when it is concerning me. Whether the opinion is about me or someone else entirely- it matters to me because I ask myself how the person holding their opinion, position or behavior arrived at the state they did, because we all have an effect on one another. You can say I'm playing the blaim game and acting high and mighty, but I see it from a completely different angle - I see it as a matter of playing the responsibility game; accepting that we all have a responsibility to our fellow man.



The problem - as I see it - is that people will always be the way people have always been so long as the rest of the people learn to accept that things will always be a certain way. I think we can do better than that.

I'm not saying you (or anyone else) should use the opinions of others to determine your own worth - in fact I completely agree with here in that you that you should not. However, not everyone is as strong as you or as strong as I - there are lots of people who haven't achieved that mentality of self-worth on their own yet, and that is what this whole discussion/disagreement is all about - consideration for the vulnerable.

basically what you are saying is that if i don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all.

 

it IS just online. and in the end it really doesn't matter.

it's the people who can't differentiate between real life and virtual life who end up committing suicide because they allow everyone to affect how they feel about themselves.

if you care too much about what every single person says or thinks about you, you might as well be done with life.

that's not meant to be heartless, but if you can't build some callouses, then you will go throw life being hurt.

that's no way to live.

i'm too old to care about every small remark.

 

 

i didn't think that it was "civil or not". i didn't think much of it. it was in jest.

but now i suppose i have to analyze everything before i say it to make sure it's pc.

 

if you really knew me, you would see that i am nice and harmless. but you don't know me, and you can't ever, not by the computer.

lets face it, people can always hide parts of themselves online.

 

you know who's opinions matter to me? the people who love me.

sure i still get upset when i think people are putting me down, but i know how people are and always will be. why should i allow them to determine my self worth.

I don't see it as being on a "high horse" to ask that people look at themselves and see how their words and actions effect other people.

 

In my vision of a "different kind of society" it would be one which people are capable of analyzing their actions and interactions with others and being able to accept constructive criticism; and to use that criticism for just for that: to construct themselves. So yes, you are right in that you can say I don't see that as being very different here, since this notion seems to be lost on many people.

 

It's very simple: I said your words were not very civil and that I don't think you put much thought into the power of how you interact with other people. You (for some reason) can't see that, and you get hung up on saying I'm trying to be condescending.

 

I would love to hear how me being critical of your demeanor, be it online or in the real world, is being stuck in my "own views and thoughts". While I may be criticizing your behavior, I'm certainly not closing my mind to different ways of looking at this issue - you on the other hand are refusing to accept that there could be any validity to my statement about your social conduct.

 

So yeah...

not such a different kind of society lev.

you always seem to be on your high horse.

regardless of the topic, you can't see beyond your own views and thoughts.

go ahead and tell me how i'm wrong on so many levels.

I don't care and probably wouldn't care even if I was completely bald or going bald, but at the same time I sit there and think, "is that really how people talk to other people online"? Is everyone really so techno-de-sensitized that they just think "well it's just the internet" and don't stop to think that on the other side of the internet is another person..?

 

Maybe it's just me, but I think that people just carelessly say things online without considering that if they are writing something to someone else, someone else is reading that something. And maybe I don't care, but is that really the way you want to go around on the internet, thoughtlessly saying something which could hurt someone's feelings? I mean if it's not me, it's someone else, and what then?.. sometimes it's gotta be the someone else, and then it's only a matter of time before someone thoughtlessly fails to articulate what they mean and sends someone off the rails..? It's like saying something like, "did you put on weight" - maybe to the right person they could take it, but maybe you say it one day to someone who can't. I just don't see it as very civil in any way. Maybe you just say things like that to people in real life too, and maybe you're fine with that, but I still stand by the belief that I don't see it as very thoughtful or civil.

 

Is it really that hard to see where I am going with this?

 

People should be more considerate even though "it's just the internet" as so many people like to say. Far too many times I see people online driven away from communities because others somehow rationalize bullying to themselves and to others. If that's fine for you, then I guess it's your life and you live it how you want, but me personally - I just often get in shock at how I see people talk to each other - both online and offline.

 

(oh and for the record, YES, I have gained weight, so you're welcome to have a field day with that if you prefer because it would at least be accurate - if that is your cup of tea)

i'm equally confused because if you don't care then it shouldn't matter.

and i was actually making more of an "i see you there" statement,  your hair just happened to be what stood out mostly.

and, too, i figured you could take it, you're a big boy now.

.

besides, i'm too old, and lifes too short to be pc all the time.

haha - I can't tell if you're joking or if you're serious.

 

If you are joking, haven't you already said that many years ago?

 

And for the answer: no, it's not receeding at all. I've always had a high hair line, and I've sworwn you've stabbed at that once or twice in the past. Maybe it's the straight on angle in the reflection of this pic or something. I've been told (and I don't know if this is true or not) that men with high hair lines from a young age won't lose their hair. My dad was the same way - with a high hair line, and he never lost any of his hair as I far as I know and lived like 45ish.

 

If I ever do start losing my hair, I'll shave it just like all the other people who lose theirs haha.

 

If you were serious - that's kind of a harsh thing to say to someone, don't ya think? Or was it that you know me enough to know that I wouldn't be offended or care?

 

I'm confused. >_<

wow your hair is really receding isn't it?